Monday, February 11th, 2008
....
| this Week in Wayfarers:
* views on the proposed Wayfarer solution - 2 * can anyone shed light on this?? wooden W that was for sale in Florida a few years ago? * Chesapeake Cruise talk heats up - new participants expected this year * John Young (father of Lori Beehler, and the Whiffle Web's biggest fan) checks in * a treat for fans of wooden W's and their restoration * |
| Subject: views on the
proposed Wayfarer solution - 2 from Kit Wallace, the CWA's rep to the WIC meeting last summer: -----
Original Message -----
From:
Kit Wallace (W1037)
To:
al schonborn
Sent:
Monday, February 04, 2008 7:31 PM
Subject:
Hartley proposal
I’m all in favour of the
proposal, not least because I’m hopeful that it will bring the class
together again after some quite acrimonious discussions that have
taken place over the past year. These strong feelings have originated
with the racing fleet, and rightly so, because it appeared at one point
as if the fleet would be split by the better performing Hartley design.
My view about the Wayfarer is that even though it is a one-design class, it is a very slowly evolving one-design, and it is a good thing that it goes though a re-think now and then. Witness the changes that have been adopted by the class over the last few years (at least since I’ve owned a Wayfarer) such as deep rudder blades, transom flaps and slot closure strips, as overall improvements to the design. Each of these changes was hotly contested for fear that they would unfairly enhance performance. The boat and its rigging have certainly evolved over time, with the introduction of stiffer fiberglass hulls in several different variations. The change from wooden to aluminum spars must certainly have represented a major performance enhancing boost. It is appropriate that change should happen if the Wayfarer design is still to have vitality and a constituency – it is a 50-year-old design, after all. I think that change is a positive sign that the design isn’t moribund and continues to fill a need. We do not want to be sailing antique boats. We do need to attract younger sailors to the fleet. I thought what was most interesting about Roger Proctor’s report was that he revealed that his father, shortly before he died, had expressed concern about how the newer wooden boats were pushing the envelope of the strictly one-design hull shape, and how he was opposed to this, wanting to stop future wooden boat construction. Much as I regret that no new wooden boats will be made in the future, I think that Ian Proctor’s wish to see an absolutely standardized hull shape as essential to preserving the one design class, can now come true. I think he would have approved of the many other subtle improvements to the design as well. If, as the resolution promises, the Hartley boat goes into production with a revised hull mould, we will have the best of all solutions - far better than racing the new boat under a handicap system, which would surely have split the fleet. This outcome could scarcely have been imagined in the heated debate of last summer, and we should be grateful for all the behind-the-scenes work by the WIC and especially to Roger Proctor for negotiating a successful compromise with Mr. Hartley. Kit Wallace, W1037 -----
Original Message -----
From:
Al Schonborn
To:
Kit (W1037)
Cc:
Roger Proctor ; Gordon Harris W968 ; Richard Johnson W10139 ; Poul
Ammentorp (home) ; Jesper Friis home
Sent:
Monday, February 04, 2008 8:44 PM
Outstandingly
put, Kit!!! I do believe that this will motivate me to do a daily Weekly
Whiffle update for the next while, in which I will add proposal
views as I receive them - starting tonight!
Have copied
this to some who will doubtless enjoy reading your views!!
Thanks and
best regards,
Uncle Al (W3854)
from Søren Kragh Jespersen (W10332) -----
Original Message -----
From:
SKRJ (Søren Kragh Jespersen)
Sent:
Monday, February 04, 2008 8:18 AM
Subject:
Hartley proposal
Dear Al, Even though I am most likely not entitled to participate in your poll, as I am a member of SWS (living in Denmark) I wanted to pop an opinion and a question. I have also posted the opinions and question in Danish on the SWS-forum... I have received the Roger Proctor report via Poul Ammentorp and I am generally very positive towards the solution proposed. I think it is great work and the right way to continue… However, after having read the
report, I was puzzled about two issues: 2. That mounting the deck after taking the hull out of the mould can make a further 12 mm difference in the height from the keel. The last issue left me thinking: "If it can make such a large difference whether the deck is mounted before or after taking the hull out of the mould - will / should it be required that the deck is mounted before the hull is taken out of the form?" Do you know if this has been discussed / thought about? If a good answer is found to this question I will definitely be happy to vote for the proposal and I hope everybody else will as well… Best sailor greetings from Denmark, Søren
Kragh Jespersen, W 10332
-----
Original Message -----
From:
Al Schonborn
To:
Søren (W10332)
Cc:
Roger Proctor ; Poul Ammentorp (home) ; Gordon Harris
Sent:
Monday, February 04, 2008 10:39 AM
Hi, Søren:
Good to hear from you!
As I understand it, the plan was always to add the deck while the hull
was still in the mould, but that the builders were rushing to get
several boats completed quickly, what with the Worlds coming up fast,
and so they tried a short-cut that everyone, including the builder, now
realizes should not have been tried. I myself don't understand much
about this kind of stuff, so I will copy Gordon Harris who will be
working with the builder on behalf of the Class, when (if) the UKWA
accepts the proposal at their 1 March 08 Annual General Meeting. He
would be in a better position to fully answer your question. I will
also copy Poul and Roger Proctor in case they have anything to add.
I will add your
comments to next Monday's Weekly Whiffle and have, for the
moment, added you as a "yes" vote to my poll. Thanks for asking this
question, which someone else has also asked, so that we should get a
clear answer to it, rather than just assuming that it goes without
saying that future Hartley W's will have the deck added while the hull
is still in the mould.
Med Wenlig hilsen,
Uncle Al
(W3854)
-----
Original Message -----
From:
Gordon Harris
To:
SKRJ (Søren Kragh Jespersen)
Cc:
Al Schonborn ; Roger Proctor ; Poul Ammentorp ((home))
Sent:
Monday, February 04, 2008 11:43 AM
Subject:
The Hartley Wayfarer
As has already been explained, the differences in the transom measurements of the early boats arose because the deck was not joined to the hull while the hull was still in the hull mould. It must be first understood that the Hartley hull moulding has no transom. The transom is a part of the deck moulding. A hull moulding which is released from the mould will have very little stability as there is no end-plate (normally the transom) to control its shape. This would not be such a problem if the hull was still in the mould when the deck was joined as the hull mould itself will control the final shape. An added complication is that the transom does not fit closely to the hull at the periphery of the transom. This is because if it was a close fit, the thickness of the joining flange would be much too thin, and would be considered too fragile for a heavy boat like a Wayfarer. Therefore there is a gap left intentionally so that a gap filling bonding paste can be used to substantially reinforce the joint. If the hull is joined other than in the hull mould, the hull and deck components could be clamped together to form a wide range of shapes and measurements, as we have seen with the early production. The transom moulding is more rigid than the hull moulding so the hull can move relative to it. There are some measurements at the existing transom, even when joined in the mould, that are outside the rules that apply to the wooden boats, so the hull mould will be modified so that all boats produced from it can fall within the measurement tolerances. At the same time recommendations will be made for procedures and jigs which will ensure that all the boats will be as nearly as possible the same. I hope this helps you to understand how the differences occurred. Gordon Harris -----
Original Message -----
From:
Al Schonborn
To:
SKRJ (Søren Kragh Jespersen) ; Gordon Harris
Cc:
web master UKWA - Bob Harland ; Poul Ammentorp ((home)) ; Roger Proctor
Sent:
Monday, February 04, 2008 12:57 PM
Thanks so much, Gordon!
I will post this fine explanation that is very enlightening to me
- and no doubt to other Wayfarers - in my next Weekly Whiffle
with a little something on my front page to point to it as well.
Perhaps, Bob Harland
(copied) would - with your permission - like to post it prominently on
the UKWA site where it might very nicely fill an apparent gap left in
earlier explanations, as UKWA members educate themselves prior to the
big AGM vote.
Best regards,
Uncle Al (W3854)
-----
Original Message -----
From:
SKRJ (Søren Kragh Jespersen)
To:
Al Schonborn
Cc:
Roger Proctor ; Poul Ammentorp (home) ; Gordon Harris
Sent:
Monday, February 04, 2008 1:00 PM
Dear al,
Thanks a lot - and you can
surely count me as a yes :)
Wenlig hilsen,
Søren W 10332
Hello Søren,Dear Gordon, Thanks a lot for the good explanation - now it is easy to understand why the large differences can occur. Do you know whether the issue has or will be discussed with Hartley Laminates? And what is your opinion on the need / appropriateness of doing so? Thanks to all of you who are putting so much work into resolving the unfortunate situation! Br, Søren W 10332 The matter of the transom has been discussed with Hartley Laminates, and they are aware of the alterations that are to be made. I believe it was necessary to make the alterations to appease the concerned racing members, so that the transom fell within the measurements of the wood boats. It was felt this would help to gain acceptance of the new model. Gordon -----
Original Message -----
From:
Poul Ammentorp, WIC Secretary
To:
'Al Schonborn' ; 'Gordon Harris W968' ; 'Roger Proctor'
Sent:
Monday, February 04, 2008 5:12 PM
Dear Al,
Gordon and Roger
It was very interesting and clarifying reading the mail of Gordon. I fully agree in your roses to the two Wayfarer supporters Gordon and Roger. And by the way, thank you to Gordon for taking your time to answer questions from the Scandinavian Wayfarer racer Søren Krag Jespersen. Wayfarer regards Poul (W239) |
| Subject: can anyone shed
light on
this?? wooden W that was for sale in Florida a few years ago? -----
Original Message -----
From:
Smontondo@aol.com
Sent:
Saturday, February 09, 2008 7:58 PM
Subject:
Sam @ Lake Eustis
For Medical reasons, I gave up sailing and now do Race
Committee. I am going crazy! The present Regatta is going well,
but I just can't get sailing out of my blood. I have a special
question to ask of you. Mike Murto and I are talking about the
old woody that we looked at and are wondering if you have anything in
the archives that might give us a starting point to recontact this
person? We can argue about ownership if we can make a deal.
From what I have observed from the Regatta so far, the black
woody "Shadow" is being sailed well and we would like to see you
and Marc with that old green monster against it.
Sam
-----
Original Message -----
From:
Al Schonborn
To:
Sam Montondo
Cc:
Dotty and Mike Murto
Sent:
Sunday, February 10, 2008 1:10 PM
Hi, Sam:
Good to hear
from you. Sorry I can't help you with that ad. I have looked through
all the back-up copies of stuff I have made over the years but have not
found that ad. Unfortunately, I have been working on the assumption
that no one will need such information once an ad is removed. There is,
of course, a lovely wooden W for sale in NC - 3rd ad at http://www.wayfarer-canada.org/forsale.html,
which seems to be a fairly good deal? Good luck!
We have had
many a fine tussle with Shadow over the years. Hope you've
been getting fine sailing weather for the Mids!! I trust Mike (copied)
will make sure the results are sent to me a.s.a.p. And a regatta
report? Am expecting Nick Seraphinoff to phone me with an update some
time today as well.
Best regards,
Uncle Al (W3854)
|
Subject: Chesapeake
Cruise talk heats up - new participants expected this year
-----
Original Message -----
From:
Richard Harrington
To:
Al Schonborn
Cc:
Tony Krauss (W4105/276); Tom Graefe (W9668); Gary Hirsch (W1321);
richard watterson (W10245); Robert Mosher (W3445); Alan Asselstine
(W7346); William D. Harkins (W2526)
Sent:
Thursday, February 07, 2008 2:22 PM
Hi
Al,
When
it is you who starts thinking about
cruising details, I know winter is starting to become a drag.
Your suggestion is fine. As you say, we just didn't seem to be
getting the good wind on the first day the last couple of years.
But actually last year, by afternoon, the wind did pick
up nicely.....so we could have gone the other way. For
new first-time folks, the shorter run over to Smith allows a little
chance to get acclimated to the area. We forget how it is
quite a bit different than most of us are used to, i.e., all the
shoals, islands lie below the horizon, etc.
Besides
yourself, the folks I've heard from so far are:
I'm
waiting to hear from Tony Krauss, Bob Mosher, Richard Watterson, Alan
Asselstine and Tom Graefe. If you hear anything new let me know. DICK
From: Al Schonborn
[mailto:uncle-al3854@cogeco.ca]
Sent: 02/07/2008 2:33 PM To: Richard Harrington Cc: Tony Krauss; Tom Graefe; Gary Hirsch; richard watterson; Robert Mosher; Alan Asselstine; Bill Harkins Hi, Dick:
Just
emailed you the link to Jim Phoenix's site at http://www.jimphoenix.com/index.htm and
its great wood W refurbishing shots. Our emails must have crossed in
the ether!! I trust that this Chesapeake Cruise talk will bring others
out of the woodwork?? Let's hear from you, guys!!
Best
regards,
Uncle
Al (W3854)
-----
Original Message -----
From:
richard watterson
To:
Al Schonborn
Cc:
Richard Harrington ; TonyKrauss ; Tom Graefe ; Gary Hirsch ; Robert
Mosher ; Alan Asselstine ; Bill Harkins
Sent:
Thursday, February 07, 2008 2:35 PM
I don't know yet if I will be able to make it this year. Depends on a number of factors which are not quite clear at this time. I really hope I can make it. Richard Watterson -----
Original Message -----
From:
Al Schonborn
To:
richard watterson
Sent:
Tuesday, February 12, 2008 12:32 AM
Hi, Richard:
We hope so, too! It
wouldn't be anywhere near the same without you!! Fingers crossed!!
Uncle Al (W3854)
-----
Original Message -----
From:
Tony Krauss and Mary
Cc:
Al Schonborn ; Tony Krauss ; Tom Graefe ; Gary Hirsch ; richard
watterson ; Robert Mosher ; Alan Asselstine ; Bill Harkins
Sent:
Monday, February 11, 2008 6:21 PM
Mary and I are without question joining the cruise. Our house is, of course, open to the first 5 or 6 bodies (exact number a function of individual's familiarity (with each other) and general tolerance for crowded informality taken to extremes (and, of course, Mary's eventual "ENOUGH ALREADY, WE ONLY HAVE TWO BATHROOMS!") who wish to hang out for the pre-game festivities. Tony -----
Original Message -----
From:
Gary Hirsch
Sent:
Saturday, February 09, 2008 8:49 AM
Hi all!
Wow! I just took a look at Jim Phoenix’s web site. I hope that isn’t the detail that is expected from all of us woodie owners. I would be afraid to take his boat on a cruise and mess up the varnish job. As to the Chesapeake, you guys lead the way. I am the newbie here and will just follow. That is until I find out that you are all a bunch of rascals leading me down the proverbial path.  I
have studied my charts. I even have an old set of waterproof
charts of the Bay that came with a boat from my past. My
33-year-old son has agreed to be my crew. Although my boat won’t
be as pristine as Jim’s, I can’t think of much that could keep me away
from this cruise.I have been accumulating some outfitting/camping gear. Therm-a-rest mattresses, dry storage bags, small camp stove (probably don’t need that for this trip), compass, anchor & rode, etc. If others could discuss some equipment that they “wouldn’t leave home without” other than a credit card, it would be helpful. It is too cold right now to strip paint and apply epoxy, but as soon as it warms up a bit, I will be on task. Reading & writing about this trip is helping the winter pass. Keep your thoughts coming . . . Gary (W1321) -----
Original Message -----
From:
Al Schonborn
To:
Alan Asselstine W7346 ; Robert Mosher W3445 ; Gary Hirsch W1321 ; Tom
Graefe W9668 ; Bill Waller W923/W1662 ; Tony Krauss W4105/276 ; Richard
Watterson W10245 ; Hans Gottschling W938 ; Dick Harrington W887 ; Bill
Harkins W2526
Sent:
Saturday, February 09, 2008 12:50 PM
Hi, Gary et al:
Isn't it fun to spend a
cold winter's day dreaming of the coming summer's sailing. It'll be
great having you and your son with us, Gary. And the Jim Phoenix web
site is really something, eh?
I have updated 2008
Chesapeake Cruise group mailing list by adding Georgia's Bill Waller
(W923 - with the cabin, and W1662 glass).
Charts:
http://www.wayfarer-international.org/WIT/cruise.daysail/misc_charts/Ches_Bay_booklet_charts_index.html This brand-new link gives access to various excellent, full-scale Chesapeake Bay charts in downloadable, printable PDF format that Tony Krauss pointed me at. The first two should cover anywhere we'll be going this year. These charts are what I used to get lat and long to enter as useful Chesapeake Cruise way points on my excellent, cheap Garmin etrex handheld GPS. In case anyone wishes to borrow or cross-check my readings, I have copied them below:
Hermit Island way
points will be next on my agenda!!
Do stay in touch, one
and all!
Best wishes for a short
winter,
Uncle Al (W3854)
-----
Original Message -----
From:
Richard Harrington
To:
Gary Hirsch ; Al Schonborn ; Alan Asselstine W7346
Cc:
Tom Graefe
Sent:
Monday, February 11, 2008 12:10 AM
Hello
guys,
My
goodness! Yes indeed, it is truly amazing that Capt. John
Smith and his troop of hardy sailors back in 1605(?), in a 20 or
so foot Schallop no less, ever found their way around
Chesapeake Bay without charts and, God forbid, a GPS. There
are so many navigational marks in this region you should just pack
the GPS away and save on the batteries!
Making
your own paper charts off the Internet is fine but a few drops of water
on them and you've got mush. Better to spend a couple of
dollars and get something that won't disappear into the bilge when
things get dicey. If you want the very best item for dinghy
sailing the ADC Waterproof Chart book is it....$60. It
covers all of the Maryland and Virginia waters. See item #14000 at GMCO Maps & Charts,
1-888-420-6277.
Preparation.
One year when Margie and I were down on the Bay it turned quite rainy
and chilly. We spent most of that trip wearing heavy fleeces and
foul weather gear. Keeping the feet dry is also important at
such times. On the other hand we are usually catching a lot
of sun, so very good sun block and caps need to be on the list.
Don't forget the insect spray.....this is marsh land. You'll need
water sandals or shoes when making landings on Watts island.
Here's
a list of boat items:
Pump
& bailer
Sponges/towels
Two
paddles (or oars)
Lots
of mooring line (you'll be staying in 'big boat' slips)
Over
size (large!) fenders (two)
Nine
pound, minimum, anchor w/5-6 ft. of chain and at least 100 ft. of rode
Boat
cushions
Water
container
Container(s)
for lunch & snacks
Several
flash lights (extra batteries)
Headlamps
Distress
flares
Immersible
VHF radio (ch. 16/weather)
First
Aid kit
Waterproof
stowage bags for clothing
Emergency
repair items (epoxy, glass cloth, cotter pins, shackles,
screws/nuts/bolts, etc.)
Tools
Sail
tape & duct tape
Other
things I've forgotten!!
Food.
The
stove and a couple pots and pans is good. You may want
to make a quick breakfast or lunch. Instant cereals,
coffee, cocoa, fruit juice and soups are good for snacks
and emergencies. I always pack along several meals that I
can prepare in case we should get stuck somewhere remote.
Okay.............what
did I forget?
DICK
-----
Original Message -----
From:
Gary Hirsch
To:
'Richard Harrington' ; 'Al Schonborn' ; 'Alan Asselstine W7346' ; 'Tom
Graefe'
Sent:
Monday, February 11, 2008 7:48 AM
Dick,
I just checked the old chart book that I referred to in my earlier email and it is the ADC book. It is labeled 4th Edition. It looks like they are up to the 8th Edition now... Thanks for the list of equipment. Spending the winter watching for sales on stuff will help the snow disappear. Gary PS – Us techie types need our toys, too! I wonder what John Smith had to play with while he cruised the Chesapeake? Well, we'd better not go there . . . -----
Original Message -----
From:
Richard Harrington
To:
Gary Hirsch ; Al Schonborn ; Alan Asselstine W7346 ; Tom Graefe
Sent:
Monday, February 11, 2008 1:45 PM
Gary,
My
book is the 8th edition but I doubt there is any real differences
between the two. You've got all you need. Two years
ago I was anchored in the mouth of the Onancock River in Virginia
when I got hit by a series of severe thunderstorms. I thought I
was prepared when the leading wall of wind from the
first squall line hit, tent up, etc., but I had the back of
the cockpit open, and away flew both sets of charts. Then Blue Mist started to do her wild
dance, veering back and forth at the end of the anchor rode
and the large 5 Kg Bruce. I had the CB raised but still
worried that she was going to catch a chine and do a flip. With
so much of the area being marsh, there isn't any
land elevation to break the wind, even though you are well
protected from waves. Fortunately, there is a book store not far
from the town of Onancock where I found the chartbook.
Sorry
I let my anti-GPS bias show through so much. I have an
old very basic Magellan 315 that I use, but only when I need
to. It is simple enough that I don't have to get out the manual
to relearn how to use it on those rare occasions. I used it one
time on my two-week Maine cruise last September when crossing
Frenchman Bay, from Prospect Hr. to the Cranberry Is. in thick fog
and rain. Though I had a couple dozen waypoints
already programmed into memory, I still needed to install several
new waypoints while sailing (alone). (I always write down a
table of the waypoints on the chart and highlight their location.
I always locate waypoints near a navigational aid, land mark, or
some identifiable land feature....never pick an imaginary
point on the surface of the sea which cannot be identified and
verified.) The wind at the time was very light. However, I
am a very strong proponent of encouraging people, at least in the case
of dinghy cruisers, to develop and hone good basic coastal
navigation skills using just charts, compass and a trained
eye. Using a GPS is so nice and easy, it tends to
defeat this approach and can become a crutch. I get more
satisfaction from making a successful tricky passage
from relying upon my own navigational skills. But
at times the GPS is nice to have.
DICK
-----
Original Message -----
From:
Al Schonborn
Cc: Alan
Asselstine W7346 ; Robert Mosher W3445 ; Gary Hirsch W1321 ; Tom Graefe
W9668 ; Bill Waller W923/W1662 ; Tony Krauss W4105/276 ; Richard
Watterson W10245 ; Hans Gottschling W938 ; Dick Harrington W887 ; Bill
Harkins W2526
Sent:
Monday, February 11, 2008 11:42 AM
Hi, Dick:
A fine list - glad you
mentioned the possibility of cold weather: the night before Rock Hall
last year, it got quite chilly and I ended up having to wear my
"genuine" union suit (photo below):
 You must have far
better eyes than I do, Dick. I have trouble telling one navigational
mark from the next until I'm practically on top of it. And what with
the feature-less shoreline, I found things much easier with the GPS
last year than without it the year before. I still vividly recall the
ill-advised circumnavigation of the north half of Smith that Hans and I
made in 2006 where we had a heck of a time finding the east entrance to
the Big Thorofare and lived in constant fear that we had missed it -
ah, those were the days. I'll never forget Chicken Shit Island as we
called it in the log:
"It
was a fast exhilarating ride to the north end but then the beat back to
the entrance to the Big Thorofare began. The whole shore was so
featureless and flat that we were afraid we might miss the Thorofare.
Everywhere you could see the Thorofare channel markers but always
across marshy land. We had picked a tiny island marked Drum Pt. on the chart as
our indicator that we were near the Thorofare entrance. "We're looking
for a little chickenshit island," I explained to Hans. Half an hour or
so into our beat, we thought we had spotted Chickenshit Island but as
we came closer, it turned out to be part of a peninsula. Another
candidate appeared off our bow shortly thereafter. "This is it," we
exulted, "the Real Chickenshit Island!" Alas, another false alarm! By
the time we spotted the actual Drum Pt., we had also discovered "the
Real True Chickenshit Island", and were truly glad to find ourselves in
the Thorofare once more. We were most fortunate that the wind had not
died and we had a lovely sail towards the sunset and Ewell. "
Tsk! Tsk! I just
actually, really checked your list, and find a major omission - a vital
item you included in the fine list you made last year: Smith and
Tangier are "dry", so we need to "bring our own". For me, it'll be a
supply of Grolsch with the resealable, snap-on caps that are great
for heeling boats, not to mention the now traditional rum and Dr.
Pepper, which André so rudely interrupted last year with his 11
PM announcement that his boat was sinking!!
Man, this is fun and
does keep thoughts of winter at bay!!!
Best regards to all,
Uncle Al (W3854)
|
Subject:
John Young (father of Lori Beehler, and the Whiffle Web's biggest fan)
checks in
-----
Original Message -----
From:
Al Schonborn
To:
john young
Sent:
Monday, February 11, 2008 10:00 AM
Hi, John:
Lovely to hear from
you! Hope all is well. Just think, right now I could be stuck down in
Florida and missing out on the -18C and a wind chill of God only knows
what, right outside my door!
Did Lori and Andrew
make it down there in the end? I have only had a phone report from Nick
Seraphinoff (W864) and am still eagerly waiting to get (and post)
Midwinters results, report and pictures.
Thanks for the good
wishes and do stay in touch!
Best regards,
Uncle Al (W3854)
|
Subject: a
treat for fans of wooden W's and their
restoration
|
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in not being able to go to
Florida. The gang will miss UR
presence, not only as a mentor on the water and in the winners' circle
but at the bar in the Oyster Troff and humorous activities in the
clubhouse.....Andrew, in Thunder Bay and
Lori in Ottawa, were trying to patch flites to Florida this
a.m......cos of the storm in TO. I noticed the tornados have started
again in the deep South , but not yet in Fl... like last year near Lake
Eustis. 
......John